Lunch with artist Diego Perrone

Between one course and another – all down to Diego’s culinary skills –, plenty of laughter and a few bottles of wine, our chit-chat brought up shared anecdotes, observations on the possible relationships between art and food, reflections on today’s art world, the protection of (bio) diversity, the abuse of trends and the effects that, consequently, this all has on every contemporary society. An unconventional symposium lightened by the conviviality of a shared meal and the irony shared between two friends.
DG

What are these?
DP

Egg tagliatellini.
DG

Egg tagliatellini with…?
DP

A kale pesto that was left over from the other day (laughs).
DG

How did you make it?
DP

I crushed the kale with garlic and oil in a pestle and mortar and I added a touch of parmesan – I would have added some ricotta or pecorino too if I’d had any.
DG

It’s essentially a classic pesto.
DP

Exactly. And raw kale is delicious because it’s slightly bitter.
DG

Slightly bitter and with a slight bite.
DP

And it contains a lot of vitamins.
DG

Yes, in fact, it’s very good for us! Should I be worried?
DP

It’s far better than a smoothie!
Laughter
DG

Or a pineapple and carrot juice.
DP

Exactly! It even contains an antibiotic: garlic.
DG

Right, so it’s a healthy lunch.
DP

It’s a healthy lunch that also tackles colds (laughs).
While eating
DG

You’ve always cooked, haven’t you? We met when you came to make dinner at mine and Tommi’s house.
DP

Tognazzi!
DG

The Tognazzi dinner, exactly.
DP

I even stole your recipe book.
DG

You did – L’Abbuffone! (The Glutton, a recipe book by Tognazzi, Ed.)
DP

That’s the one. My favourite recipe was the one that required somebody with a heart-shaped behind to sit on the dough after the bread had risen to give it the right shape (laughs).
DG

Tognazzi had just done Ferreri’s La Grande Bouffe… He had always cooked and always had this obsession with food. His home in Velletri was famous, he used to invite his friends over – from Gassman to Mastroianni and so on – and throw these endless amazing dinners. Then everybody would wind him up by saying they weren’t satisfied so he would throw another even better one the next time.
DP

Like we do, sometimes.
DG

Exactly. Those lunches that start at midday and last forever.
DP

We should try one that lasts for days.
DG

And see who survives! (laughs) I do think that food can be considered a platform for understanding people better.
DP

Well, food is power. Or rather, food is hospitality and hospitality is power. You can seal any deal you like over a meal. In fact, since we’re here…
DG

You need a favour.
DP

I’ll get something out of you with this nice lunch, you’ll see (laughs).
DG

You’ll get me drunk…
DP

Exactly! This 14% wine should do the trick. It’s a delicious mix of Cabernet and Nebbiolo.
DG

Made in the countryside where you’re from?
DP

Yes. I must learn how.
DG

Speaking of which, that area is also of great importance in terms of art and research because that’s where you did I Pensatori di Buchi.
DP

Yes, near there. I wasn’t born in the countryside but in the small town of Asti. My parents had a small house, those 1970s style houses with a bit of land that I dug up for a year or so. It was supposed to be a vegetable garden…
DG

And became a series of craters…
DP

It became a film set! I used to dig during the week then my friends would arrive at weekends to take photos. We had scaffolding, lights, flashes… that rural location effectively turned into a cinema.

My favourite recipe was the one that required somebody with a heart-shaped behind to sit on the dough after the bread had risen to give it the right shape (laughs).

DG

Do you ever eat in the studio?
DP

No, there’s too much dust, various poisons, resin…
DG

Best not to from an organoleptic perspective then…
DP

I don’t think you should eat at the studio, you waste so much time: you have to wash up, do loads of things… you may as well go home to eat, that way you don’t even have to share with everyone else in the studio.
DG

Excellent idea.
Laughter
DP

You could take a pietanziera into the studio though.
DG

What did you call it? The pietanziera? Is that a Piedmont term for a packed lunch?
DP

I failed my fist year so my parents enrolled me in a private school, where after-school club was compulsory and they give you extra support because they think you’re an idiot… (laughs) There was a period where they only gave me chicken to eat but there weren’t any standards for food back then and I started growing breasts – there must have been hormones in the chicken. I went to see the doctor because they were swelling and they hurt. I was pretty puzzled by the whole thing… (laughs). After that I started taking my steel pietanziera to school with homecooked food. The school really was awful, like a canteen, where they reheated everything and there was this sickening smell… It was there that I realised that food has to be good and I started cooking. It was extremely difficult for me to cook at home: my mum is very traditional so she would be offended if anyone else cooked. There was no means for interaction (laughs).
DG

Did you cook secretly?
DP

Yes. There was a period in my life where I cooked in secret and I was growing breasts.
Laughter
DG

It was a precursor of food porn.
DP

Yes, the provincial version (laughs). Naturally I was a big fan of Tinto Brass’s films. And Tognazzi.
DG

What about your glassware? Are you still making it?
DP

Glass is a great recipe you know. It’s all ingredients. To make a glass you need 10 or so chemical components, which become an opaque green glass or a transparent red glass when exposed to high temperatures. And I mix them together, so I have a potion cauldron…
DG

It must be a fairly organic result, I imagine that you can only control the process up to a certain point.
DP

Yes, that can be a problem. I don’t really like the physicality of materials, I’m not a big fan, in fact I try to control that as much as possible, despite it being impossible. Glass is the opposite of the material needed for sculpture. For sculpture, you need an opaque material that will show the plasticity and monumentalism, the surfaces and volumes… The opposite happens when it’s a glass sculpture, because the light enters the structure and you can’t see the volumes anymore. You see a coloured silhouette. Given the quite strident, almost acidic, colours that I use, they look more like images or holograms than forms with volumes.
DG

Then there’s the firing time. There’s a kiln, right?
DP

Glass is made up of chemical components that mix together – so you can’t really control them, as you said – and there are some that are cooked at 900 degrees, some are more liquid, some are denser, some are mixed differently so they naturally blend. They have to stay in the kiln for five weeks.
DG

Why does the temperature have to fall naturally?
DP

It has to fall constantly. Then you set a thing called the firing curve – the ovens are computerised – they know that after a couple of weeks you have to up the temperature a little because that’s when the forging is really happening. Honestly, it’s a very tiring process.
DG

I find waiting extremely tiring.
DP

It’s 150 kilos of glass in a single block. It’s not delicate, but difficult to handle. It can’t be changed once it comes out. The glass cannot be retouched or chiselled. If there’s a crack or an internal defect, it shows. It’s a preconception that it’s a fragile material, because it’s like marble when it’s in blocks like this.
DG

Make a sculpture from nerves next time. You’ll get more or less the same effect.
DP

Yes, transparent, soft, streaky…
DG

They’ve got marbled veins but are less heavy to transport and the firing times would be much shorter.
DP

I remember a friend of mine once made beautiful silicon noodles and hung them on the wall. It looked just like a plate of spaghetti, hanging down there, splattered against the wall. Another time, some other friends and I did something similar: there were 7-8 kilos of tartare in a single block and apples for dessert. We split into two teams and started throwing the apples, then of course we started with raw meatballs. The clean-up was a bit tricky the next day, we had to remove the tartare from the walls (laughs).
DG

The famous “wall meat”.
DP

Not especially good, by the way.
DG

I like that you say “not especially” because meat is always good.
DP

I don’t know if I would eat human flesh. You held that cannibal dinner, didn’t you?
DG

Yes, I was more interested in the metaphor of cannibalisation. A cannibal dinner where one diner got really offended, because they took it seriously! They kept saying “No, I’m against cannibals”.
Laughter
DP

They couldn’t get their head round it. We ate lamb chops with mint, I remember it very well. That sauce you made was really good. One of the best I’ve ever eaten. The anti-cannibal enjoyed it too…
DG

You’re doing this Grasso project with Giuseppe (Gabellone, Ed.).
DP

Grasso, in my opinion, is a pretty great project.
DG

Very much so! Among other things, the name is a nod to the kitchen too (Grasso means fat, Ed.).
DP

It’s true! The person I rent the studio from is called Grassi, and my grandmother’s surname was Grasso too! Do you think it’s a sign?
DG

Ahhh! It all makes sense. Can we call it a publishing project?
DP

Yes. It is a 2x3 m poster, folded and packaged inside a transparent case, with the colophon becoming the graphic. We do something a little different every time. It’s normally an image, but it could be all text – that would be nice to do one time.
DG

I like the sound of the name Grasso. It’s a cheerful name.
DP

Do you remember when I called an exhibition Sculpture that is not a shell does not sing? It was borrowed from Gio Ponti. It really gives the idea, because when something sings it means it has the right essence to be perfect.
DG

Yes, to be perceived.
DP

Exactly. It brings us back to food again. Because some things are just so elementary yet perfect, like bread for example. Bread is an incredible material.

Everything is perfect and functional nowadays, at least on paper. But there is no longer any rift or epiphany or surprise… I think this might be a problem.

DG

Have you ever made your own bread?
DP

Yes, when I forget to go to the bakery I make some in thirty seconds. I make Arabic bread in the pan with no yeast. I use a little oil, a little flour and a drop of water. I roll the dough out thinly, make big discs like a plate, pierce it with a fork – add salt, of course – then I heat a pan, throw it in and it swells immediately.
DG

Homemade bread is big again recently.
DP

I think it’s better without yeast.
DG

Easier to digest.
DP

And better for you. You can choose your flour, but I’m not sure it makes a difference. Kamut is a whole brand now. Of course, some have different flavours and are better, but I think white flour is refined. In terms of taste too.
DG

At one point there was a trend for black bread made with vegetable carbon, but that was a visual palliative in the end.
DP

The problem for somebody who produces is selling and I’m saying that because of the job I do. You can go to work all day every day, but if you don’t sell anything then you’ll end up broke. The problem is selling something that costs very little.
DG

Do you mean bakers?
DP

Bakers too. But you can be induced to buy any kind of product. Snacks, for example, we used to like them because they were tasty and sweet, but now we want to be told they’re organic. If only they really were.
DG

But this also satisfies a pleasure that goes beyond hunger or taste. It is just like the superstructure or additional message that a work of art can give you and from which it takes its value, if you will. Regardless of how many are produced or what the content is, communication is essential. Today the best vehicle for the sale of snacks and treats is adding “organic” because it satisfies a shared imagination. It is as effective as a work of art that speaks, for example, of love at a time when love is once more one of society’s universal themes. Regardless of the specific work behind the art, sandwich or snack.
DP

Consumption must be constructed.
DG

In any context. Another thing that makes me think about how often food can be a litmus test is that so many people don’t realise how conservative their culinary perspective is, myself for one. This thing about food and how it’s interpreted and considered often makes you want things the way they used to be. Am I still a progressive or am I starting to get set in my ways?
DP

We are simply consumers. Right now, that’s the brand we want and they produce it. And they induce us to buy it.
The second bottle of wine is opened. The last one in the house.
DP

How am I ever going to do any work today?
DG

I came by bike, thankfully.
DP

So, you’ve got time to work it off.
DG

Yes, I have 19 minutes of fresh air and paying attention. More or less. You’re making wax sculptures too, aren’t you?
DP

I haven’t exhibited them yet because I haven’t got enough. I had to stop for a while because I had other things to do. When I have ten, I’ll show them all together. But I like them. You are one of very few people who has actually seen them.
DG

The wax sculptures are even sexier, excuse the expression.
DP

There are lots of different colours there and I like being able to paint on them, in fact I work with oil paints. The pineapples you see are made like a real painting. Instead of the brush, you have a sort of oil pastel that you can melt with the hair dryer and make it more like a watercolour, but with the density of wax. It’s still a world that I have to explore. It’s interesting because, little by little, I’m trying to actually paint. I’d like to paint landscapes.
DG

Well, they’re a bit like landscapes now.
DP

They’re a bit like giant emojis.
DG

They are like agglomerations of images, which can somehow be put in order to tell stories…
DP

They have an internal nature and are more intentional as drawings. You can feel the manual skill of that type of work, it’s more like a traditional artist.
DG

Do you have a more direct relationship to the work, are you more in control?
DP

Yes, it is painting, material… and then I like the pop style. It’s my favourite thing. In this case it is just oil on canvas.
DG

Are these wax works for the wall?
DP

Yes, for the wall.
DG

So the viewer’s relationship with the work actually changes radically. They are no longer pedestal works, let’s say.
DP

They are also a bit homemade – even when I was making video my style was a bit cut and paste, a digital hammer and chisel – but I used some decorating techniques. They look like several colours combined, which, once kneaded, look like fake granite or fake marble, which I like a lot. I did several tests to work out how to get this effect. There is a whole tradition, which I am not following at all but which fascinates me, around decoration and decorative techniques.
DG

Is that what you try to do in the kitchen too?
DP

It can happen in the kitchen too. I think the great chefs do that, I mean, they are essentially artists. They interpret the material according to their vision and return it to the public.
DG

… in the hope of making it palatable and shareable.
DP

There is an effectiveness, even in simplicity, of the message/food and how it is combined.
DG

I say this as a fan, but don’t you think that too much has been said about food in the last few years? That it has turned into a sort of superficial obsession?
DP

It is a method of consumption that has grown a lot and which I don’t think had freedom, so it is imploding a bit. In Italy, it went really wild because it wasn’t really managed culturally. It becomes a bubble after a while.
DG

Like the bubbles or trends that form cyclically in the art world?
DP

Probably. I find it hard to recognise them, I’m a bit naive from that point of view. I am also very attracted by fashions and trends, because I can’t completely embody myself. Even unconsciously, when I decide to do something related to a more captivating or alluring theme, I adopt a behaviour that protects me and sets me aside and being on the sidelines makes me a different person. It is a form of self-protection that comes naturally to me, which enables me to touch more things and escape my whims: decide to do something I like, even though I don’t know exactly how to make it happen, since I am not at the level of a professional who knows that material intimately and knows how to communicate it, how to make it truly effective. Eventually strange but interesting and curious products emerge. Maybe I should protect them, that’s what UNESCO does around the world.
Laughter
DG

It’s true.
DP

The inability to be anything in the end means protection, diversity.
DG

Biodiversity!
DP

Biodiversity must be protected. They are on the verge of extinction, the last whale.
DG

It’s you, Colonnata lard and Pienza pecorino. Bad but so very good.
Laughter
DG

I would just like to underline the fact that we ate 300 g of meat each.
DP

I ate 400 g actually. Not good, we are once again an anomaly on the outside of the system. You don’t drink at lunch: you have a quick work lunch, light food for a shiny brain. That is how interviews are done. We did the opposite! We are biodiverse! Luckily we don’t do interviews every day!
Laughter
DP

I think it’s a nice theme though.
DG

Biodiversity?
DP

Yes, because you are also like the monkey people throw peanuts at. It’s difficult to maintain enough control to be respected as well. Because it is true that a freak is biodiverse, but it is also grotesque.
DG

It provokes a feeling of attraction that sublimates your fears. You need it to confirm your supremacy, or normality, compared to someone who has somehow deviated.
DP

We’re talking about professions anyway. In the sense that there are many themes nowadays and they are almost all professional, because the level of professionalism has risen so much, which I think is good, but we are saturated. So, it becomes difficult to compete and the charm of the shared strong theme sometimes leads you to touch on it, but you can’t always manage it. The quality of art has increased so much. The painters of today are able to get it just right… they screw you. Even a good curator sometimes falls for it. There is a simulation of well-expressed talent that gives you those ever so slightly dissonant little titbits that are needed to make you like the work.
DG

It is a very professional and highly functional quality, but it can become problematic in some areas.
DP

There is a subtle equilibrium that could produce many things, but it is very complicated because you move within very narrow margins. You are a kitten in the crystal cabinet: you can move but there are many risks, because we are talking about a field of action with very little space.
DG

Thank goodness, imagine if it was any wider!
DP

We need to be lucid to understand what this space is. It’s very complicated. This might be one of the possible fields of action, but there are others.
DG

I also believe that in many respects everybody is getting pretty good at picking out what is good, what is healthy, what is positive, and yet we are running the risk of flattening everything in any area. Everything is perfect and functional nowadays, at least on paper. But there is no longer any rift or epiphany or surprise… I think this might be a problem.
DP

Because we have become capable of doing. More than we expected at least.
DG

But the risk here too is a flattening and saturation of instances, including positive ones.
DP

That’s how fashions work. If they haven’t been saturated, they produce market effects, so someone will want to ride the wave. The same thing happened in the countryside: there was a time when everyone had to be a priest, then they had to be a doctor, then an architect. All fields that were eventually saturated until nobody knew what job to do.
DG

Perhaps we have eaten and talked enough now. Let’s move on to the grappa.
DP

Here it is.
Laughter