Drink with Italian Icon Ornella Vanoni

Vanoni is a siren who has enchanted Italy for over half a century (a 60-year career, to be precise) moving from Canzoni della Mala to Bossa Nova, from pop to jazz, from theatre to television, from one relationship to another, and becoming an icon in the meantime. Utterly Unica – unique – like the title of album of unreleased music released this year, like the film about her recently presented in Venice. With her head of red curls, the crowning glory to her feline body, her mischievousness, that melancholic and suave inflection, Ornella seems to exist in a circular dimension of time. One endless moment. Eternal and childlike at the same time. Within her, opposites attract until they collide with each other in a continuous game of improvisation, as though she were constantly playing free jazz. And now here she is, walking towards our table, getting distracted at least 20 times along the way: she talks to waiters, stops at the bar, and touches the decorations, from which she plucks a flower. “I like this flower because it is male and female together.” She looks out of the window at Milan’s grey and immobile sky: “I like this climate, I’m from Dublin. I find this very relaxing.” And she sings all the while. Ornella always has music in her mouth. “Non so piùùùù il sapore che ha / Quella speranza che sentivo nascere in me...” The melody continues until the lift. All of a sudden her levity turns serious, she looks at her assistant and asks for her phone. “I need to work.” It’s a tight fit in there so we are all part of her conversation even without wishing to be. She is talking about a tribute to her career. A muffled voice can be heard on the other end: “Ornella, but that makes it seem like...” “Like I’m dying? I AM dying! We are all dying!” And she laughs. We are in her room now. Before we even start talking, I have seen her in her underwear on the bed. It seems that she has no problem showing herself to strangers, or she simply doesn’t care. She puts on a Dior suit, which wraps around her torso and leaves her neck free, “this is no good for singing though, look, I can’t move!” She raises her arms up and down to show us how far they go.
We go down to the bar and take a seat, I order a tea and Ornella a Margarita.
OV

Wow, that’s a big glass!
The waiter brings Ornella her Margarita and asks if I would like anything to drink.
VR

Maybe another Margarita, just to loosen up a bit. I’d like to keep you company too, we can drink together. I’ll drink half tea and half Margarita, in an attempt to be half healthy.
OV

Or half unhealthy.
VR

That’s the way to do it, isn’t it? I saw the film...
OV

You’ve seen it?
VR

I really like it. What did you think?
OR

Well... it should have taken a week. We were in this spa, an extraordinary location that you can’t quite work out what it is or where it is...
VR

It was very interesting architecturally speaking...
OV

Mussolini had it built. I gave in to Elisa’s wishes, I completely let myself go, but it was 40°.
VR

When did you shoot?
OV

June.
VR

Oh wow. Last June was one of the hottest months, perhaps of your life Ornella.
OR

It’s always going to be that way now with the way things are going. Anyway, I like it, I think it’s unique.
VR

How would you describe it?
OV

How would I describe it... Personal.
VR

Why?
OV

Because I laid myself bare.
VR

Literally.
OV

As the French say, je me suis déculottée.

VR

Was that a spontaneous gesture? I imagine that you’ve never had any real issues with it, what with your background in theatre. The first thing they teach is that you must use your body. You are the body.
OV

Exactly, very true. Many singers use their mouths but not their bodies. The body is part of the whole: it is a harmonious dance, everything sings.
VR

I also really like that the film is so tactile. Everybody touches you. The physio, the masseuse...
OV

Because this place was a spa. I had gone there to recover, I die at times. Especially at the end when I got into the pool, with all that heavy stuff... But I’m a happy woman whenever I’m in the water. Water is so important to me.
VR

Why is that?
OV

I don’t know, but it is said that your birth is a very important factor: my mother gave birth to me after three days without water. That might be it. I am reborn in water. I got into the water, I played the siren. It’s called Senza Fine (Endless) I would rename it Endless and Personal.
VR

At one point, they ask you about your lifestyle...
OV

The doctor that made me walk, you’re right. I have back problems.
VR

Who doesn’t have back problems, Ornella?
OV

True but I fell down the stairs 15 years ago and smashed my pelvis.
VR

Oh wow, did you spend a long time in bed?
OV

I did concerts on crutches.
VR

You just can’t stay still.
OV

I just try to have fun. I can’t stand anybody who tries to stop me having fun. At this age, this is the last party for me. I know I am a one-of-a-kind – in my environment, not among actors. It’s just the way that I am: it turns out I’m funny, I’m not formal, I get bored with boring people... or people who don’t laugh, who can’t laugh... just fucking laugh! I was talking to my ex the other night, we went out to dinner and I was saying: do you remember what life was like in the Eighties?! I see all these pictures of huge tables of people with everyone laughing. The Eighties were so good, so extravagant. Then everything fell apart.
VR

Why do you think you used to laugh more back then? Just because you were rich?
OV

Well, Craxi had said that we were happy, content and rich. We were young, we had great boyfriends – I had fantastic boyfriends!
VR

Who was your fantastic boyfriend in the Eighties?
OV

After Strehler and Paoli, I had a new love. Another very handsome young man, we laughed a lot, drank a lot and ate a lot, hung out with friends... light-hearted and superficial but that’s what you need.
VR

So after all these heavier, more burdened and intellectual men, finally you had a boyfriend who...
OV

He’s still handsome today. He’s great. We had a little boat that we called Gozzoviglio (which translates as Revelry).
[Laughter]
VR

And where would you go?
OV

We had an apartment in Santa Margherita, we’d head there, buy fish at the port, invite our friends over... otherwise here in Milan at Solferino, we had the time of our lives.
VR

It looks to me like you’re still having fun now.
OV

Look, it’s hard. Life is complicated... We get so much bad news nowadays, you just get used to the pain. I don’t want to get used to it. What kind of person are you if you don’t see how much pain there is? That’s not for me. And I have no interest in people who want to turn a blind eye so they don’t suffer. I don’t really want to think about it because later... but instead we have to fucking think about it.

Many singers use their mouths but not their bodies. The body is part of the whole: it is a harmonious dance, everything sings.

VR

It’s something that really strikes me about you – and perhaps the reason you have such a strong connection with Brazil. Because it’s sad and happy. They have Carnevale, but they also have saudade...
OV

Brazilians have this characteristic, this kind of joyfulness... not all of them but anyway. I would walk around Copacabana with Caetano Veloso who would tell me, “Ah, if I see a barata – barata means cockroach – I’ll be terrified...” And I was terrified too because they’re as big as dates there. Once I had an appointment with Chico Buarque in a cachaçeria, to talk about work. We drank two cachaças, we embraced and we forget what we were supposed to be doing... unbelievable!
VR

And what was the cachaça like?
OV

Strong.
VR

What were your first impressions of Brazil?
OV

There were some stratospherically beautiful people there. They aren’t as beautiful anymore. They’re all into America and food... There were some incredible men – or at least that’s what it seemed like to me, perhaps it wasn’t true. But they definitely used to be more beautiful.
We make a toast.
VR

I’m worried about spilling it. This isn’t the glass for me.
OV

And how do you like your glasses?
VR

Straighter. This Margarita is strong. Anyway, we were talking about sadness. But on your last album, you say that you chose yellow because it’s a happy colour.
OV

I chose yellow for joy. But it depends. I like yellow, I like purple and everyone tells me that purple brings bad luck! I wore purple when I went to the Teatro Sistina to do Rugantino for the first time and everybody made gestures to ward off bad luck. Come on! It’s green in France, I couldn’t tell you why.
VR

But this album comes from a place of joy, doesn’t it? Listening to it and looking at the cover, it occurred to me that you are an open person. What is it that gave you so much joy when you were writing and singing this album?
OV

I am a joyful person. I am both a joyful person and a very melancholic person. I don’t get depressed anymore because I sought treatment for that and I continue with it. I can’t stand people who suffer from depression but don’t get the help they need because they ruin everything around them. It’s horrible, it’s a very nasty illness.
VR

What else do you find cures you, apart from medicine?
OV

Nothing else. Either it’s a bereavement and then you have to process it and if you haven’t after a couple of years then you seek psychiatric help. Otherwise I would fall into depression that I couldn’t stand anymore. I got treatment, I continue to receive treatment and I could just kill the people who don’t.
VR

The physical impression that I get from you is that you’re not afraid.
OV

I am not afraid of pain.
Ornella shows me the scar on her neck.
VR

Is that a scar? You’ve had it for a long while, it looks like.
OV

Since the war. There was nothing but suffering.
VR

So you reasoned that you were born with bombs and there’s nothing more that cam frighten you.
OV

I am not a person who scares easy.
VR

You can tell. Have you have ever been to therapy?
OV

No. When I was very depressed, I psychoanalysed myself and there’s nothing that I don’t know about myself. You can say anything you like to me, but you’ll never surprise me because I suffered so much that when I came out of it, I knew everything.
VR

And what were you like afterwards?
OV

I would invent a show or write a song.

I just try to have fun. I can’t stand anybody who tries to stop me having fun. At this age, this is the last party for me. I know I am a one-of-a-kind – in my environment, not among actors. It’s just the way that I am.

VR

And in the meanwhile? Nothing?
OV

I was in the dark for a year.
VR

You mean, you spent a year at home without turning the lights on? What were your days like? Just nothing?
OV

I had to give my dog away and get a cat instead because I couldn’t look after it. I couldn’t look after myself. Depression is the worst illness there is because you don’t fight to live. I never thought of killing myself though.
VR

What is it that got through to you? What is it that changed inside you at a certain point?
OV

I lost all my hair at one point. I went to see a doctor who said, “Yes, I can give you something for your hair. But if somebody cares about their hair, it means they want to live, no matter how much they’re suffering.”
VR

So what happened next? What was that time like?
OV

I went into a clinic for 10 days and they told me the diagnosis was very simple, I hadn’t slept in 3 months and that would make anyone depressed. It was anxiety. I came back to Milan and I went to see a doctor who gave me the perfect treatment which I still use today.
VR

Anxiety about what?
OV

Everything.
VR

Existence.
OV

Yes, life.
VR

And have you resolved it?
OV

I don’t suffer from anxiety anymore.
VR

You seem very open to other human beings. I feel like you have a lot of trust in people.
OV

Lots. I like people, I appreciate them. I like being with young people. Before at the bar, I said: “Take your mask down, let me see how beautiful you are.” You see? I give a lot of compliments. That makes people happy. Why is it so hard to love others?
VR

It’s absurd because, from what I’ve read about you, I would say you had extremely visceral relationships with your partners but from another point of view, I see you as a very strong figure. And when I read your biography, I though, OK, she knows when something becomes too much and she’s able to get out of it.
OV

Oh yes, I’m a woman who, no matter how much I may be in love, would rather rip my arm off if I had to. That’s what happened with Strehler. Then with Gino. But I would never have left Gino. It was such a mess but we were so happy.
Ornella sings: “Volevo amarti un po’, ma ti amo già di più. Volevo amarti per non soffrire ancora e ho scoperto... ti amo adesso sì.”
VR

What is your idea of love? Is it something that changes over time?
OV

If we knew what love was, we wouldn’t have written millions of books about it.

I like people, I appreciate them. I like being with young people. Before at the bar, I said: “Take your mask down, let me see how beautiful you are.” You see? I give a lot of compliments. That makes people happy. Why is it so hard to love others?

VR

It’s mysterious.
OV

Love is always different. But Gino wrote this clever song that says: “ti lascio una canzone per coprirti, ti lascio una canzone che tu canterai a chi non amerai senza di me.” Meaning, you carry all your past loves inside you even with the next person, you can’t throw your experience away. You bring your previous relationships into every love story. Everyone brings their own experience, which then changes with the next love, but you carry it with you.
VR

And do you think it’s only when you experience this kind of intensity with someone? Or can very powerful friendships be love too? For example, you say that women have hurt you very badly.
OV

I have loved two women, but they didn’t hurt me.
VR

Two? When was this?
OV

The Seventies, the Eighties. It was real love, and tenderness too.
VR

And what was it like physically?
OV

It’s not very natural to me, but I can love a woman. Of course I can. Love her very much and be happy together too. I would very much like to have a friend to live with now.
VR

How did these relationships begin?
OV

They are two different stories. One was from many, many years ago, she was much younger than me. We had this fun relationship for years, we each had other things going on...
VR

Ah, I see, it was an open relationship.
OV

Yes, very open. We were always together. Then with the other person, that was real love and tenderness. Such tenderness.
VR

When reading your book, I really liked that you said you had a healthy relationship with sex.
OV

I used to! That’s out of the question now. She is no longer interested.
VR

But she’s seen some things!
OV

She’s had a good time.
VR

And that’s it? You’re all done now?
OV

As I said, I’m after tenderness.
VR

It looks to me like you’ve got tenderness around you.
OV

But I live alone. I’ve got my grandchildren. My grandson likes the theatre, he wants to work there. My granddaughter is 18 years old and she came to me and said: “Gran, if you pay my ticket to New Zealand, I’ll go alone.” And she hasn’t come back yet. After New Zealand, she went to Cambodia, then to India, and now she’s in Fuerteventura.
VR

She’s travelling in the same way you travelled.
OV

She likes adventure. She’s got wanderlust. Do you know what that is?
VR

That sense of adventure and wonder too.
OV

And amazement too. I think that’s been lost nowadays. It’s so rare for people to be amazed nowadays.
VR

What amazes you?
OV

Nature. Nature really amazes me.
VR

What about nature, exactly?
OV

Trees, the sea, lakes. Nature amazes me because she is stronger than us. She’ll outlive us all.

If we knew what love was, we wouldn’t have written millions of books about it.

VR

Is there any particular place that you connect with this amazement?
OV

I love Venice, for example.
VR

Because it’s the city of water.
OV

Last time I went, we came by plane from Rome and we crossed the laguna by night. It’s always amazing.
VR

Wow. It’s also a labyrinthine city Venice, which I think is another thing that makes it beautiful.
OV

Did you know that there is one street that is so narrow that some people have to walk down it sideways?
VR

Venice challenges you, I like that.
OV

I remember once, when I was living in Monaco, my partner had to go to Venice and I accompanied him. We walked through Piazza San Marco, it was dark and there was nobody there except a young man playing the flute. Those are the magical moments that you’ll never forget. Never. There is magic. Another magical moment: I was in Saturnia once and I was swimming. There was nobody around and it had snowed. I watched these snowflakes just melt into the water... these are the really amazing things.
VR

You have often talked about your relationship with drugs, have you ever tried psychedelics? LSD and that sort of thing?
OV

No. The last thing I need is to lose my mind, given what’s already...
VR

I just wondered. Because it’s an experience that opens you up to amazement and nature.
OV

Yes, that’s true.
VR

But you still smoke weed?
OV

I can’t sleep otherwise. I smoke joints as though I were taking sleeping pills. Never in the day and never when I’m working.
VR

A nice joint in the evening.
OV

Or two. Depends how strong you make them of course.
VR

There was a rumour going round a while ago that you were looking for an assistant just to roll for you.
OV

That was a joke. I would like to find a carer who can roll though. I would be walking down the street and all these young guys would say: “Signora, I’m out of work at the moment. I’ll come! I’ll roll for you!” Then when they found out I knew the rapper crowd...
VR

I’m also curious to know what attracted you to the musicians that you are currently working with?
OV

There is this singer-songwriter called Fabio Ilacuqa.
VR

I saw that he lives in isolation...
OV

He doesn’t have a telephone. Every morning he goes into the fields, he hoes the ground and cuts... He works like a farmer essentially. He paints very well, he reads everything he can get his hands on. How could that kind of man be boring? He’s got so many interests. He practically made my album for me. Isole Viaggianti is his and I think it’s extraordinary.
VR

It’s beautiful, I really liked it too.
OV

You too? If you avoid the main road, where everything is already laid out, you can take the secondary road and make discoveries. You have to invent the secondary roads.
VR

When do you think you have taken a secondary road?
OV

I think my way of thinking is a secondary road. For example, at this point, I don’t care anymore, I say what I like. Before singing, I can say what I want. I am totally free in that sense.
VR

How do you become so free? Is it just that you no longer care, at a certain point?
OV

What am I supposed to do at this point? Either you’re free or you’re dying.