Dinner with Francesco Pantaleone

On a remarkably warm autumnal evening I met with Francesco Pantaleone at Lyle’s, a bustling restaurant serving seasonal fare in Shoreditch, London. Over a traditional British menu, the pre-eminent Sicilian contemporary art curator enthused about the energy of Palermo, work with soul; and the importance of dancing, community and tomatoes that taste like tomatoes. Francesco’s curatorial practice reflects his considered approach to life, balancing lightness, humour and provocativeness with an assured sense of responsibility, insight and principle. And conviviality is key, from the old friends who bring you coffee in the morning, to the new friends you host for dinners that turn into residencies, which turn into life-long interlinked works of art. To continue the tradition, wine in hand we discussed the duty of artists to reflect and critique society; heavy cultural backpacks; the multifarious ways to define quality of life; and the significance of the family you make.

FP

I can wear the ETRO shirt [pulls out a cotton shirt printed in stripes of various shades of purple], or a T-shirt [pulls out a charcoal grey cotton Marc by Marc Jacobs logo T-shirt with a green fade through the typography]. Will the photographs be in colour?
JR

In colour, I like the Jacobs T-shirt
FP

OK, I think this could be good?
Goes to the bathrooms to change into the Marc Jacobs.
BM

Have you been at Frieze today?
FP

I’ve been, yes. I arrived here on Monday, I had a lecture at Christies Education and then on Wednesday I went to Frieze and Frieze Masters. Only briefly, it was so busy and a friend of mine had an opening elsewhere. I’ll go again tomorrow morning.
WT

Hi guys, I should tell you about the food. It’s a fixed menu, four courses with some snacks for the first course. I just need to check is there are any allergies?
We each shake our head
WT

Great, I’ll get the food on the way.
BM

Am I correct in thinking that the gallery was initially at your apartment?
FP

Yes, we moved from there three years ago. Now we have a proper gallery with an office space. How did you know?
BM

From research!
FP

Everything about me online is fake, you know, I’m actually a doctor. I do plastic surgery.
Laughter
BM

Could you tell me more about the original space, and the conversion of the palazzo?
WT

These are tomatoes from Kent with olive oil and horseradish. Your other snack is deep fried mutton shoulder with mint sauce.
ALL

Thank you.

FP

Yes, the story is that after university and my military service I moved to New York. I worked at the Gagosian gallery for a while and then I returned to Palermo. After all my experiences living abroad it was hard to stay at my parents flat, so I decided to look for a new place. I found a place downtown, in the Vucciria – the name derives from the French for “butchery” – it used to be a market but had become an area for illegal trade. I found a big flat there and moved in with my partner Francesco Giordano. We were in love with art and artists, and whenever anyone from the art world arrived in Palermo we would invite them for dinner or a party, and that’s how it started. In 2003 we decided to convert an area of the apartment into a gallery, an artist friend of mine told me “Listen, there is not a good gallery in town and you know everybody. You invite people for dinner, you like art, you know artists. Maybe you should be a gallerist” It was a good idea. We opened our program to both Italian and international artists, the place was amazing and they were very happy to be there. The only problem was that people from Palermo were afraid to come to the area.
BM

Did international artists not mind so much because they didn’t know Vucciria?
FP

Yes, and the collectors would come anyway – but they probably had drivers, and bodyguards! But it wasn’t at all a dangerous area for us residents.
BM

And did you have a residency programme at the space?
FP

Yes, the apartment we rented was big, and we squatted another part because it was empty. The owner was a friend and he didn’t mind not paying for the second space, which we used for the residencies. We were really sharing life with each artist. Waking up in the morning, having breakfast together, having lunch, having dinner together, working together, going around. It had to be with nice people, otherwise it would be uncomfortable. Some of these artists are still in my life too, they are like relatives. We grew up together, we trust each other.
BM

I read that it was an area that, after WWII had fallen into disrepair?
FP

Yes, the buildings needed to be restored and it’s expensive. People live there, mostly poorer people and artists, and the economy has been so bad in Palermo that there was no money to improve the structures. The people living there were very open with us. We did a few projects in the square and there was always a very good response. It was nice to start from this simple area, there was so much to do.
WT

Would you like some wine? Maybe a caraffe with your first two courses?
BM

And how was it to return to Palermo?
FP

It was exciting, it was a nice period. And of course I had stayed in contact with my friends here when I was abroad. While I was in New York I used my contacts in Italy, and while in Palermo I use my contacts from abroad. You always take your life with you, you don’t leave your life when you leave a place. And the more globalised we are, the easier it is.
WT

This is a Chenin from the Louire Valley, a Chenin Blanc. Comepletely natural – who would like to taste it?
FP

I don’t know this wine, I think it’s good? It looks like an old wine, no?
BM

It tastes good! What’s your current show?
FP

It’s a Norwegian artist, Per Barclay. This is our second project with him. He fills rooms with pools of evocative liquid, mostly black motor oil, which reflects the space and the architecture. The current work is with milk though. It is in the Oratory of Santa Caterina d’Alessandria, the church with Baroque stuccoes by Procopio Serpotta. Everything is white, so the idea was to do a project with milk – and Saint Caterina d'Alessandria was supposed to bleed milk. Per Barclay is a pleasure to work with, young artists can be a bit hysterical, he is 60 now and is very relaxed. You know, in Palermo, our work strategy is not so much about economy. We don’t earn a lot of money, but we don’t spend a lot of money. It’s about art, you must want to do it, so it’s important to have good relationships with artists otherwise it can be a nightmare. When you have good relationships you can enjoy a dinner, food, wine, share experiences and then things arrive, slowly. This is the Palermo mood. It’s Italian, but if you go to Milan its not like this, Rome is less business than Milan and then the south is even less business.
BM

The work of the artists you show seems very much informed by Palermo.
FP

Yes, definitely. The location is fundamental, and the energy of the place. After deciding to settle in Palermo I felt I had a responsibility. There aren’t many galleries for contemporary art here, we live in a bit of a bubble. But for us, contemporary art is our language, it’s what we have to do. And it is helpful to develop a sense of the contemporary, which then informs our broader lives – civil rights, politics, it’s important we don’t live in the past.

WT

This is the delicatta pumpkin with whey butter, kale and cobnuts.
FP

Wow, that is so good.
BM

Mmm. And art is such an effective way of communicating the period,
FP

Of course, it’s a mirror of the time. I read somewhere that Andy Warhol used to have a silver wig because silver looks like a mirror… Artists reflect and transform their reality, it’s the best way to read what we are living. They can catch the energy with their imagination, and give it to us through the work. That is fundamental.
BM

How has Palermo changed since you were a child?
FP

Everything changes every day. Some places change rapidly, some slowly. And we change, the perception we have of reality changes every day. We have to consider how we relate to reality, it’s so important that artists give us a sense of this, and transform their perception of the real into art. ...This is really good, so much butter. In Sicily we do pumpkins with a bitter-sweet agrodolce, it’s with vinegar, very good. You should come in Palermo! We have a flat for artists – and writers and photographers!
BM

Yes! I’d love to visit. Are you still living in the same apartment?
FP

No no, three years ago I turned 40, and my life changed. I left that apartment, it was fantastic and full of energy but very big, difficult to manage and everyone knew that place. We had people arriving all the time with a bottle of wine, introducing new friends, it was great but i was a little bit tired after 10 years of that life. Always party, party, party. The new place is smaller, I changed my life, I returned to the gym, I pay more attention to my body, I drink less. I have more control, my life before was very nice but a little too much.
BM

You’re opening a new space in Milan, is it like working in two completely foreign environments?
FP

You know Milan is the centre for the economy and for contemporary art. It’s nice to be so insulated in Palermo but it’s important to also be on the scene. People know me, the way I am and that’s because I travel a lot, it’s a big part of my job. You are expected to live the life that collectors don’t have time to do. You travel, you meet artists, you do the dirty job, haha.
BM

The artists you represent are so diverse but there is also a sense of humour, and provocation that ties them together.
FP

That’s important, the similarities are the soul of the gallery and that’s so important. There has to be a line in your work, and for me it’s also important to have diverse artists. In Palermo we are one of the very few galleries, so I have to offer the greatest possible range, I have to offer an entire landscape. But you must have a soul, people have to be able to recognise you. And the soul is instinctive.
WT

This is the brill with black cabbage.
BM

You must eat a lot of fish in Sicily?
FP

Of course, we are an island. The sun, sea… art is very important but we are human beings, so we want to have a good life. And of course we use our summer, that is when we invite collectors, and show off our quality of life.
BM

What’s your plan for while you’re in London?
FP

I will go back to Frieze, and I have some meetings. And then clubbing. At XXL a party for bears. It’s the weekend! You must take a break from work, and you never know who you might bump into when you go out – you can meet very interesting people. You have antennae always working… But London used to be more exciting, the best period of my life for London was when Salvation was at Cafe de Paris, and then DTPM…
BM

And Fabric has just closed.
FP

Something is wrong, it’s the same in New York, it used to be fantastic for clubbing and then slowly after Giuliani they closed everything. And people from New York, rich people, used to come to London just for the weekend.
BM

There’s a pub next door to my studio that has been turned into a tea room. I don’t understand what has happened, it’s like the apocalypse is coming.
FP

Maybe people are getting more private, because of the internet. I thought about this in the context of the gay scene, now with applications people are more into private parties, using apps, using a lot of drugs, spending a weekend in a flat, and that’s sad. It’s horrible because it was nice when you could meet people in real life… but maybe I’m just older. And it’s important to use your body, to dance, to meet people. We are not only a computer, we are flesh and blood. But a new generation will emerge, we are just living the beginnings of this kind of thing.
WT

Dexter beef, hung downstairs for 6 weeks, just grilled off, little bit of beans and some anchovy emulsion to give it a bit of depth, enjoy.
FP

It’s so bloody! …It's surprising how much people know Palermo, I don’t know what is it that makes this city is so attractive, why there is so much interest.
BM

Is it a centre of activity for Sicily?
FP

Yes and no, we have activity but we have lazy people as well. It looks like there is nothing, but there is always something happening and people catch the energy of the place. There are a lot of people moving to Palermo, collectors, artists. And you know Aleksandra Mir? She has lived here for five years, she’s a close friend of mine. She says: “Listen, Franche, I used to live in New York and the tomatoes didn’t taste of tomatoes. Here when you have a tomato, it tastes of tomato, that’s the difference."
BM

Eating seasonally has such a huge impact on quality of life, particularly when your fruit and vegetables don’t taste dusty.
FP

In the end you don’t want to look back at your life questioning your decisions and your satisfaction. If you want to have a rich bank account, then London or New York is perfect. But if you want something else, if you want space, sun and good food maybe you should go elsewhere.
BM

My Dad’s family are Turkish and in the summer we often have raw white onions for breakfast, with chillies and tomatoes. They are delicious, sweet and sour and completely legitimate as a snack.
FP

So you are a mix?
BM

Yes, Turkish Jewish and English. My family speak about ten languages at a time, the way to communicate is to shout the loudest across the dinner table.
FP

Haha, that’s very interesting. I like to be a mix.
BM

I think it gives you an advantage, you feel less attached to a single place or way of life.
FP

Yes, and it can make you confused. You are tied to all these different stories, and you have a responsibility to hold onto them. It can become a very heavy backpack. But I also think that contemporary culture is intrinsically multicultural. We must all give the best we have, respect the people next to us and respect nature. If we put together the best of every culture we will have richer lives. We are living in a strange period where we are paying for the politics of the past. We may have been children when these decisions were taken but we must take responsibility for the outcomes. And art must talk about this too, it has to do everything and more to create a portrait of the moment.

BM

Have you seen a shift in the work of artists you represent, and more broadly?
FP

Artists are very sensitive, or they should be if they are good artists. A real artist is like a sponge. At this moment it is the responsibility of artists to be political. When you work creatively you must be free, but you must also be conscious. This period of artists sitting at home by themselves is finished, now they have to be part of society, be present. Maybe you can do a fantastic watercolour but please, put it in your living room, because that is not what society needs right now.
BM

Did you start as an artist?
FP

I started as an artist yes, I went to the Academy of Fine Arts in Urbino. Then I worked at Christie's, and at Gagosian, and I found a balance of art and commercial work. For me, my artists are the protagonists, and I am the barrier between them and the commercial world, or sometimes real life.
BM

You’re keeping them on the ground?
FP

It’s not a problem if they are on the ground or they are high up, but just to be real. Who knows, maybe reality is up in the air as well? …What is yeast ice cream?
BM

Maybe similar to malt?
FP

The Jewish blood in your family stems from your father, not your mother?
BM

Yes, so technically I’m not Jewish. It’s the worst position to be in.
FP

(Laughs) Sorry darling! I’m joking, it’s a great position to be in. Jewish culture is so fundamental for our century. People like Spinoza. And for Sicily it was a key because it created a distance from the Roman church which was destroying philosophy. Did you know yesterday it was Rosh Hashanah? We are now in year 5777.
BM

So far ahead!
FP

We start from Christ, this was the zero year for Christians, but the Jews were already in Egypt and they had 3000 years before us, which is super interesting. In the same year we can live in both periods and nothing changes. This principle is very important for culture because it gives you a different point of view, which is what art does. You move just a little to your left and life is not as you know it. This is why we need art in our lives.
WT

This is the yeast ice cream with dehydrated apples and toasted brioche.
FP

Wow. Silence.
BM

Oh my God.
James takes a portrait of Francesco.
FP

I think people are curious about who I am.... “Sorry no flash for you!”
JR

Where do you stay when you’re in London?
FP

I stay with two friends of mine, Ciro and John, they are really nice people, they have supported me since the early years of my life. I met Ciro and John […check which name] soon after I graduated, he said: “You could do a lot with you life, just decide and do it.” And after more than twenty years I’m still with them in their apartment. They always host me, they are very generous and very important to me. Collectors and artists, all these stars are important in my life; but it’s the people who support you and give you a real sense of yourself who are the most valuable. What I do is so often a leap in the dark, it is essential to stay connected to real life. And my life is the people who love, trust and believe in me; who wish me good morning with a coffee, the people who make me know I have a home. …Do you have enough photos? Do I look slim? Do I look macho?